Maybe Nerds rule

[edwin]

I wonder if PA people could go straight to an electrical economy with hydro, sun voltaic cell and other generation methods. For a start they would use up existing materials which would be finite although copper wiring will last for nearly ever. Steam then might be a dead-end.

In fact chemistry and technology at an achievable "micro"level would give the group that developed it a huge edge over others.

Then there is biochemistry, see yeast and similar micro-organisms from which we can get beer, cheese, yoghurt and then vinegar and a host of other products depending how clever we are.

[Matthew]

It would make an interesting new aspect of the post-apoc experience and you do wonder how the use of renewable energy sources would pan out in say a 'Survivors' style pandemic. In the remake they make something of the fact that the community established by the ex-Government minister has been established in an eco-centre or similar.

There would also be a lot of kit as well and I would assume that it would not be that difficult for a trained electrician to set up.

This offers perhaps an indication of what could be achieved....

www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/Plans-80-acre-solar-panel-farm-Lincolnshire/story-16751572-detail/story.html#axzz2QYCYJk72

[tq168]

www.renewables-map.co.uk/

[edwin]

Interesting map but of course does not show the succession of roofs with photo-voltaic panels. A twelve volt DC electrical economy is certainly possible and sustainable stepping up is feasible. Batteries can be refurbished and I see no reason why the panels could not be as well eventually. Hydro electric and wind power are all supplements.

Gardening for food on a large scale with electric rotovators as well as all the other electrical garden gadgets available for winning PA becomes quite attractive.

Then there are electric outboards for boats extending both range and adding a safety factor to fishing.

VHF and CB radio communication

Print reproduction, knowledge maintained, shared and extended.

Does this mean that a PA event would mean a mere blip and that some civilisation on perhaps a sounder footing would re-establish itself fairly quickly?

Sure there would be growing entropy in the available kit but substitutes would be a possibility.

[tq168]

Apr 18, 2013 10:05:00 GMT edwin said:

Does this mean that a PA event would mean a mere blip and that some civilisation on perhaps a sounder footing would re-establish itself fairly quickly?

Can't see why not this would not happen to groups, who have the get up and do it kind of thinking. They are a lot of company's within the UK who offer complete off grid systems, one of which you can see at
www.energy-solutions.co.uk/off-grid/index.php

Systems like this will give a group time to adjust and then live quite well after a PA event.

TQ

[davidc]

I couldn't see a group in the current time frame not making use of this type of technology, though not everyone would know how and others wouldn't want to. That's why in There Falls No Shadow I introduced a caravanner who is very into 12v systems and later in the book had the main group install a wind turbine. They also make use of portable generators and PV panels. I also have a radio-operator who is a survivor from a grounded Russian trawler support ship who takes up travelling to establish a SW network and others who use CB and PMR sets. There is more of that, together with plenty of scavenging, in Slow The Shadow Creeps but others adopting an alternative lifestyle, and with a small and decreasing population the great revival doesn't happen by the time of Fast the Shadows Fall and we see the longer-term problems with those types of renewable technologies.

You have to remember that some types of renewables e.g. wind and water turbines require regular servicing and replacement parts, and even though PV panels have a long life not all of the associated kit lasts as long. Similarly with stored foods; in good conditions tins and dehydrated items last for decades but in stores and warehouses that freeze in winter and roast in summer and eventually leak that resource would not be available to survivors for so many years, though they might continue to have lucky finds for quite a while. Liquid fuel deteriorates beyond use within a few years even if preservative is added and petrol does so within months if it isn't treated. Biofuel is a possibility but survivors would have to know or learn how to produce it and be able to find or grow and process the required materials.

Much depends on how many survivors remain after the Event and what skills they have, but life wouldn't necessarily be as easy for survivors as you might imagine, which gives us pa and non-fiction writers lots to go at of course :-)

[edwin]

I am not so sure that we would get to an end of this sort of technology. There is enough copper wire to last small groups for hundreds of years. We have to remember that if we have to use of small scale electrical devices then for several years learning potential is increased tremendously. To put it crudely electric light means one can comfortably read, learn and teach on into the night. The panels on our roof run the juice through a very complicated gadget but if that was stripped out because there was no National Grid to feed into then charging 12 volt batteries more or less directly would be relatively simple.

Take firearms as another example, barrels wear out but how many miles of hydraulic pipe are there, a lot of it bathed in preserving oil?

[davidc]

Copper wire yes and good quality solar panels will last 20 years or more but the rechargeable batteries in small devices will only last 2 or 3 years and even deep-cycle 6 or 12v batteries will only last 7 – 10 and an inverter in a system like yours will need replacing after 10 - 15. You can store the cells dry for decades but electrolyte will break down and it is a complex process to manufacture it, especially with limited technology. You can make an electrical cell of some sort with metal plates and vinegar but it won’t be 12v or have much in the way of capacity. After the batteries die the solar cells will keep on working and could power small devices directly so you could perhaps have a laptop computer that you could keep working for a long while during the daytime but your system wouldn’t provide light at night when you most need it.

After the rifling wears out of a gun barrel it will still maintain the pressure, what you end up with is basically a musket without the accuracy of the rifle but it will still work, you don’t need to worry about replacing it with crude piping. Ammunition will deteriorate much sooner than the guns, though some rounds will still work after 50 years if they have been stored in good conditions.

[edwin]

Vague memories of school but each cell we made was 1.5 volts so 8 gives the 12 volts required. But this is presupposing a parasite use of technology when human ingenuity would almost certainly move on. The SF scenarios of ignorant peasants worshipping the machine or being indifferent to it as in The Time Machine is most unlikely.

Ammunition is interesting as quantities required depend on the use and need for it. At its lowest level airgun pellets would last for ever. More than this my arrows would take down a deer as needed. If vast amounts needed of cartridges for defence then I think one has already lost the game because a Rarden Cannon on even a lightly armoured vehicle, for example, is going to deal with any amount of long guns and pistols.

In fact, a properly engineered matchlock would prove an adequate fowling piece and game taker at the level of use required especially if all notions of sportsmanship were forgotten.