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Post by Matthew on May 25, 2010 12:40:59 GMT
What is the point of now return in a UK EOTWAWKI senario ? When is it fine to start looting shops and so on with no moral worries about theft and so on ?
I think for me it would be when they stop collecting the bodies. The organised removal and disposal of dead bodies seems to be the most basic requirement of any society and once that stops happening I reckon all bets are off.
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tq168
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Post by tq168 on May 25, 2010 17:13:59 GMT
I think for me it would be when they stop collecting the bodies. The organised removal and disposal of dead bodies seems to be the most basic requirement of any society and once that stops happening I reckon all bets are off. Myself it would be when the Police, Army, TA fail to turn out. Speaking to people who i know who work for the above, there loyalty to there job only go's so far! Dave |
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Post by Matthew on May 25, 2010 19:10:37 GMT
Myself it would be when the Police, Army, TA fail to turn out. Speaking to people who i know he work for the above, there loyalty to there job only go's so far! Dave I was talking to a mate who had been involved in some Home Office civil emergency planning and he did say that there was a crucial point in managing any crisis when you had to cope with a large percentage of people such as Police officers, Nurses and so on turning their backs on their jobs and just looking after their own families. From what I understand troops are different in that they would be expected to stay loyal until the end because of the structure within which they operate i.e more likely to obey orders no matter what but I guess by that stage martial law would be in place anyway so they would supercede the Police. |
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Post by thrombus on May 25, 2010 19:46:26 GMT
It's a difficult one to call really and like all decisions in such circumstances they are yours to make alone and ultimately you may live of die by those decisions.
If the army have taken control then things are already pretty bad.... Personally i'd be making 'collections' as soon as any threat of army intervention was more likely.
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Post by edwin on May 25, 2010 21:58:07 GMT
This was discussed on our Community Technical Advisers Course I did in Wiltshire years ago. Trouble is, in a society like ours, really a good thing, the emergency services plus military can deal with it all until it really goes belly up.
Legally remember that we are a monarchy so that power continues to devolve down eventually to the last citizen/subject left alive. Not saying we should fight to sit on the throne but legally anarchy never exists but decision making is legal by the smallest group of survivors.
No such thing therefore in this country as martial law or "State of Emergency". Military and civil services always subordinate to the civil authorities, even a parish I suppose. As heirs to the bounty left by The Disaster no such thing as looting either.
Walmsley was right but would have to justify his actions if Civil Power ever restored.
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Post by edwin on May 25, 2010 22:04:33 GMT
Quote from Death of Grass on this subject:
Pirie " I had not meant say that the English are inhibited from violence. Under the right circumstance they will murder with a will and more cheerfully than most.But they are sluggish in logic as well as imagination. They will preserve illusions to the very end. It is only after that that they will fight like particularly savage tigers."
Edwin
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Post by Matthew on May 26, 2010 15:16:37 GMT
Legally remember that we are a monarchy so that power continues to devolve down eventually to the last citizen/subject left alive. Not saying we should fight to sit on the throne but legally anarchy never exists but decision making is legal by the smallest group of survivors. Thats an interesting point. Also been pondering on what sort of level of deaths would make the difference between society still existing in a recognisable form and it just collapsing. For example would the death of say 25% of Britains population, and assuming that those deaths are spread evenly accross the country and various social and ethnic demographics lead to a collapse in central control or would it have to be much higher, say in excess of 70-80% ? |
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tq168
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Post by tq168 on May 26, 2010 19:41:42 GMT
From what I understand troops are different in that they would be expected to stay loyal until the end because of the structure within which they operate i.e more likely to obey orders no matter what but I guess by that stage martial law would be in place anyway so they would supercede the Police. As to the Army this question has been asked over on the Army Rumour Service www.arrse.co.uk/You might be surprised at a few of the answers  Dave |
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Post by Matthew on May 28, 2010 6:07:23 GMT
As to the Army this question has been asked over on the Army Rumour Service www.arrse.co.uk/You might be surprised at a few of the answers Dave Squaddies moaning is hardly new  I still reckon that they would do what they were told. If anything I reckon it might be the officers who baulk at certain orders but in a pandemic situation then I still think the Army would remain 'loyal' until the very end. What might be more interesting is to see how isolated military installations reacted. For example our submarines. As I understand it the 'bombers' remain submerged for almost their entire tours so if a pademic where to take place the questions posed for their crews and commanders would be incredibly difficult. Ditto for say the Falklands would could be isolated very quickly. |
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Post by shifty on Jul 16, 2010 23:32:19 GMT
As to the Army this question has been asked over on the Army Rumour Service www.arrse.co.uk/You might be surprised at a few of the answers Dave haha arse |
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Post by Matthew on Jul 23, 2010 17:43:10 GMT
Been pondering on this tipping point senario and I reckon it might also be reached once the power went out.
Our entire society is effectively run on electricity and if thats no longer being generated and put into a national grid then I guess thats it really.
I have zero idea of how Britains energy supplies are generated beyond knowing what a power station looks like but I would guess that the numbers involved in keeping it all running are not large and that it would not take for many of them to be unable to turn up to work for it all to go horribly wrong.
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Post by thrombus on Jul 23, 2010 20:29:23 GMT
I think your right Matthew but your point could be applied to many 'services' the population take for granted. Even cursory consideration of the "Just In Time" deliveries to supermarkets etc should make you think about the 'what ifs'.
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tq168
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Post by tq168 on Jul 24, 2010 10:21:01 GMT
Myself i s think it will be when the "Police, Army, TA fail to turn out"
But one thing you will need to keep an eye on is the Tanker Drivers. When they fail to turn up for work we will be in the..........
Dave
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Post by Matthew on Jul 24, 2010 11:36:26 GMT
Myself i s think it will be when the "Police, Army, TA fail to turn out" But one thing you will need to keep an eye on is the Tanker Drivers. When they fail to turn up for work we will be in the.......... Dave Its all valid but, and this is me just trying to think it all through, why would the Police and/or Army fail to turn out ? When they can no longer recive orders to do so linked to a power failure. I also wonder what the standing orders are for the Police and Army. How long do they continue to function without having a command structure that they can communicate with in place ? And your point about the tanker drivers is a crucial one. I remember back to the first tanker driver disupute back in 2000. My wife was due to give birth in November and its the only time I have ever indulged in panic buying. I got a full tank for my car and even loaded up on some fresh water and dried food supplies. It felt kind of odd at that time. |
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tq168
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Post by tq168 on Jul 24, 2010 15:00:50 GMT
When they can no longer recive orders to do so linked to a power failure. As to the Radio system they use Airwaves. This can go off the grid tomorrow and still and still be working in 2 weeks time. There even systems to keep the phone's charged with out the mains for a few weeks. So the orders will still get through. TQ |
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